Curse

FrAnt1c² · Jul 26, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Hi,

I've been playing pvp for some time, and recently I find that the so called "Heroway" is finding it's way to GvG. This team build, where you take 4 necro heroes, 3 thumpers and a healer ( variations possible offcourse ), first found It's way to Heroes ascent. Now days as you enter HA, about 50% of the players there is playing heroway.
But why take heroes into HA? If you want to play with heroes take them to the hero battles, that why they were created. And even more disturbing, is the fact that for the past couple of weeks, heroway is also finding it's way to gvg.
Why heroes? Because, hate to say it, heroes are better then most human players, for instance, they know exactly when to use some skills such as signet of lost souls, or they know perfectly when tainted flesh is about to expire, and they are experts at keeping these up... The Necro/Rit healers used have got 'perfect' reflexes for healing, unlike most human players and makes it hard to spike.
The point of my story is that this heroway build give normal balanced teams little chance of survival against the overwelming pressure of heroway. So what's the point in even playing gvg with a balanced build as you find yourself losing to a guild that is ranked 2000 lower than yourself, and only consists of 4 human players?
I find this humiliating and these builds don't fit the word P(layer)v(ersus)P(layer), I only fear the worst for the coming gvg weekend, as the double faction reward will draw many teams to playing some gvg.

Regards, Frantic

ps: I even saw Hellas team playing heroway in gvg last week, wich makes me sad that a top 100 guild does that.
ps²: I used the search button but it didnt find anything relevant to this issue, so my apologies if there already was a topic like this one.

schelle espe · Jul 26, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

2nd that.
the reason why we play gvg is to win from other players, with 1/2 guilds playing heroway there's no fun at all.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 26, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

/not signed there is already a limit on the number of heroes in HA/GvG etc. Which is fine. Henchies have been there from the start, heros are no more than customisable henchies. Heroes are great for guilds who lack enough active players to compete.

If you want Pure PvP your in the wrong game, PvP in guildwars is AI assisted (much like games like Battlefront etc.), ghostly Heros, Base defenders, Ghostly Priests etc.(these give the battles much more variation and interesting) PvP is Player Vs Player, aslong as atleast 1 Player is facing another 1 player it fills the definition.

Gw is a game, its for people to have fun not just for people who want to enter into the Big money tournaments.

fanelli · Jul 26, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

/signed

I hope they ban hero's from HA and GvG. Play hero battles if u want hero's lol.

FrAnt1c² · Jul 26, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

/not signed there is already a limit on the number of heroes in HA/GvG etc. Which is fine. Henchies have been there from the start, heros are no more than customisable henchies. Heroes are great for guilds who lack enough active players to compete.

If you want Pure PvP your in the wrong game, PvP in guildwars is AI assisted (much like games like Battlefront etc.), ghostly Heros, Base defenders, Ghostly Priests etc.(these give the battles much more variation and interesting) PvP is Player Vs Player, aslong as atleast 1 Player is facing another 1 player it fills the definition.

Gw is a game, its for people to have fun not just for people who want to enter into the Big money tournaments.

Comparing the AI of those stupid archers, the ghostly or whatever with the AI of heroes is like comparing a lada with a mercedes.
Limit number of heroes? If half of the team consists of heroes that's already too much. If people don't have enough players to do a gvg, too bad, join an alliance, invite some guests whatever. The alternatives are there to use em.

And saying losing to a heroway team for the 7th time in a row, and winning almost flawless against all full human teams is fun, that's a bridge too far...

CassiusDrehyg · Jul 26, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

For the first time in my life, since most of the things posted here are the endless whine of PvE scrubs...

/signed

Remove heroes from competitive PvP. When I GvG, I don't want to play against Olias. I want to play against a tactical, intelligent HUMAN opponent. Hero spamming has made the HA metagame stale. I don't know any human players who can use Deny Hexes the exact second a hex hits the target, if there are though, I'd very much like to meet them.

glountz · Jul 26, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

/ signed.
Death necro heroes are scary. They have a battle awareness (who's on Tainted, who's not, insta cast undead asa a death, Discord spike (hopefully nerfed) etc...) the average player can't have, only the most skilled players can reach.

fanelli · Jul 26, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

/not signed there is already a limit on the number of heroes in HA/GvG etc. Which is fine. Henchies have been there from the start, heros are no more than customisable henchies. Heroes are great for guilds who lack enough active players to compete.

If you want Pure PvP your in the wrong game, PvP in guildwars is AI assisted (much like games like Battlefront etc.), ghostly Heros, Base defenders, Ghostly Priests etc.(these give the battles much more variation and interesting) PvP is Player Vs Player, aslong as atleast 1 Player is facing another 1 player it fills the definition.

Gw is a game, its for people to have fun not just for people who want to enter into the Big money tournaments.

If we are 5/8 for gvg and we want to gvg we invite guest from our friends or we ask in HA for ppl to gvg and it always works. And if you dont have enough ppl for HA u can always use pugs.

tenshi_strife · Jul 26, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

/notsigned....... "hey guys lets further turn pvp in to elitism, if people cant get a full group screw them." now i do hate FotMs but removing heros is not going to solve that, but if you remove heros you screw so many people its not funny. and really its not the heros its the build cause i did a hero with no heros *i know ironic* and it still murdered.

this is very close to what you heard from people when iway was big "OMFG nerf warriors GAH" or when touch rangers ran rampant "DONT LET EXPERTISE WORK ON TOUCH SKILL GAH", let this FotM flow its course and in a months time people will call you a noob for bringing heros.... its the course of the game, its the course of society....

and as sophitia said, this is a game about fun, and you remove heros and very few people will be able to get HA groups, much like when there were no heros, and the game will be much less fun....

Surtur123 · Jul 26, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

/signed

Heroes are what's ruining pvp
In fact , in my opinion, they ruined the whole concept of "teamplay", which GW was about at the beginning. Even in pve, I used to enjoy playing with other people, and if they were total noobs, I often taught them something.
Whereas since Nightfall, everyone is just playing alone through the campaign, and I find myself doing the same.

Ofcourse what they did to Ha and GvG is much worse, but that's been mentioned enough by the posters above me.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 26, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanelli

/signed

I hope they ban hero's from HA and GvG. Play hero battles if u want hero's lol.

Have you also considered that you cant play with friends/allys/guildies in hero battles? Yet u can in GvG and HA

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanelli

If we are 5/8 for gvg and we want to gvg we invite guest from our friends or we ask in HA for ppl to gvg and it always works. And if you dont have enough ppl for HA u can always use pugs.

I have a small guild and a relatively large alliance, Id rather GvG, HA with friends/Guildies etc. people I can have fun with, who wont go around calling each other n00b for losing a battle for one reason or another. However if theirs not enough of us online for a full party or only a few of us are free then ur saying we shouldn’t have the option to play any PvP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

/ signed.
Death necro heroes are scary. They have a battle awareness (who's on Tainted, who's not, insta cast undead asa a death, Discord spike (hopefully nerfed) etc...) the average player can't have, only the most skilled players can reach.

So your saying u cant compete with the Super advanced AI? That the Ai is superior to humans in all ways, and Henchies should be removed too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassiusDrehyg

For the first time in my life, since most of the things posted here are the endless whine of PvE scrubs...

PvErs have as much right to there say as PvPrs if u agree with them or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²

Comparing the AI of those stupid archers, the ghostly or whatever with the AI of heroes is like comparing a lada with a mercedes.
Limit number of heroes? If half of the team consists of heroes that's already too much. If people don't have enough players to do a gvg, too bad, join an alliance, invite some guests whatever. The alternatives are there to use em.

And saying losing to a heroway team for the 7th time in a row, and winning almost flawless against all full human teams is fun, that's a bridge too far...

So you want a easy ride through Battles by defeating easy humans?

Yes there are alternatives, Heroes are one of them. They are fill in slots for partys that don’t want to pick random people up that they cant rely on who chances are going to randomly leave, argue, offend others etc. Above all I play with friends, nice people, I can trust and have fun with, which is the whole point of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surtur123

/signed

Heroes are what's ruining pvp
In fact , in my opinion, they ruined the whole concept of "teamplay", which GW was about at the beginning. Even in pve, I used to enjoy playing with other people, and if they were total noobs, I often taught them something.
Whereas since Nightfall, everyone is just playing alone through the campaign, and I find myself doing the same.

Ofcourse what they did to Ha and GvG is much worse, but that's been mentioned enough by the posters above me.

People began to go it alone LONG before heroes arrived on the scene, the reason for it is people u don’t know u cant trust or rely on and more often than not and im sorry to say there are also offensive and nasty to anyone who doesn’t allow them to complete their goals asap. Heroes are there because Henchies only have limited skill sets, Heros are just Henchies with the ability to customise, so u can synergise much better. People still play with friends, new and old even though heroes shave been added to the game. Henchies have been in Gw since the very beginning, Heroes have changed nothing, except the skill bars on the henchies. That’s it.

Div · Jul 26, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²

ps: I even saw Hellas team playing heroway in gvg last week, wich makes me sad that a top 100 guild does that.

There are top 100 guilds that run ritspike. Heroway is balanced in comparison. Plus, it's Gr...what do you expect?

MithranArkanere · Jul 26, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Bleh. AI is AI and has its weaknesses.

They won't check if they are hiting you, you you can easily avoid proyectiles from them, for example.

Like veything in GW the solution is not whining it's getting a way over it.
If the way is too boring or requires something outside of the game, them it's time to consider it.

God Apprentice · Jul 26, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

/notsigned....... "hey guys lets further turn pvp in to elitism, if people cant get a full group screw them." now i do hate FotMs but removing heros is not going to solve that, but if you remove heros you screw so many people its not funny. and really its not the heros its the build cause i did a hero with no heros *i know ironic* and it still murdered.

this is very close to what you heard from people when iway was big "OMFG nerf warriors GAH" or when touch rangers ran rampant "DONT LET EXPERTISE WORK ON TOUCH SKILL GAH", let this FotM flow its course and in a months time people will call you a noob for bringing heros.... its the course of the game, its the course of society....

and as sophitia said, this is a game about fun, and you remove heros and very few people will be able to get HA groups, much like when there were no heros, and the game will be much less fun....

You know I get really sick of people thinking that there is this big rank elitism issue. When I started playing HA a long time ago and was unranked I did not CRY on forums about not being able to get into groups. Do you know what I did? I made my own groups and got ranked. As to the part I bolded in your post. HA was there long before Heroes were introduced, therefore how is there a problem finding groups? As to Sophita saying Heroes don't change anything. Yes, they do. Heroes can be positioned and have customised skill bars. The usual advice I would say is play fotms til rank 3, friendlist people who you get along with, make groups with them. Which is why I don't see as bolded in the second part, how it's hard finding groups. Having been through the unranked process (like everybody) I can only conclude that you people must be too lazy to make groups. We didn't have "Heroway" when I first started, we had to PuG to get fame. Slowly we got ranked and made more and more friends. How is this hard?

Secondly Heroway isn't hard to beat. However the assigned jobs the Heroes have is broken. As stated they have an "awareness" and know when to recast hex stacks, tainted. There are some good players out there, but not THAT good. This is why you don't see Hero thumpers. The Heroes have been delegated one basic task which THEY CAN EXCEL AT.

HA and GvG were once greatly respected high end pvp. But because of this scrubtrash Heroway (on top of other things), it's mostly a joke now. ANet let's stop kidding around now, get rid of Heroes from HA and GvG.

RhanoctJocosa · Jul 26, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

/notsigned....... "hey guys lets further turn pvp in to elitism, if people cant get a full group screw them." now i do hate FotMs but removing heros is not going to solve that, but if you remove heros you screw so many people its not funny. and really its not the heros its the build cause i did a hero with no heros *i know ironic* and it still murdered.

this is very close to what you heard from people when iway was big "OMFG nerf warriors GAH" or when touch rangers ran rampant "DONT LET EXPERTISE WORK ON TOUCH SKILL GAH", let this FotM flow its course and in a months time people will call you a noob for bringing heros.... its the course of the game, its the course of society....

You can't blame PvPers for being elitist when you post shit like this. Think pre-Factions, if iway, spiritspam etc. had not been nerfed don't you think people would still run and win with them? Same thing goes, if ANet don't remove heroes from PvP you're still going to see "grab 4 n' go" necro & thumper, sp sin + savannah gank, etc. EVERYWHERE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

and as sophitia said, this is a game about fun, and you remove heros and very few people will be able to get HA groups, much like when there were no heros, and the game will be much less fun....

Seriously, if you need somebody to hold your hand and stroll you into PvP go find a different game. I know somebody who started GW 4 months ago not knowing ANYONE and he's already playing in good groups & has a solid grasp of PvP.

/signed, get heroes out of PvP. It'll be a start.

Homer Simpson Be · Jul 26, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

/signed

the only good reason I see for heroes in HA is replacing a dropped player with his exact skillset
for GvG, I can't see a single reason. you should try to get to know some people that are willing to guest (or join a GvG alliance where you can find guests), and then you can just as well play when you're only with 4 of your guild...

Pharell · Jul 26, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Heroway is pure farming. It just leads to new guilds see top guilds farm champ points with it and start using it and climbing up the ladder. I've guested for a new guild a couple of days ago and we faced like 3 heroways. In GvG there is only 2 solutions to heroway: Fast pressure or split.

Anyways, i don't say take off heroes from PvP, they are handy when for example someone's connection goes out 20 seconds before one AT match, so they have to strap off a heroe real quick and get in since heroes are better than henchs.

I say nerf rits. I've had it with rit spike and necro/rit healers.

dsnesnintendo · Jul 26, 2007, 12:56 PM // 12:56

this is by far the most important change needed to HA

/signed
/signed
/signed

it is supposed to be pvp but heros just arnt fair
leave heros to hero battles

Lorekeeper · Jul 26, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Have you also considered that you cant play with friends/allys/guildies in hero battles? Yet u can in GvG and HA

Thats the whole point of hero battles. Thats the whole point of this wide range of different game modes. They cater to as many players as possible. People who want to take 3 friends into a pvp arena go to TA. People with 7 friends go to GvG or HA. People who enjoy micromanaging HERO AI go play HERO battles. They are distinct and varied for a reason, smudging the borders between them is to be avoided.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

I have a small guild and a relatively large alliance, Id rather GvG, HA with friends/Guildies etc. people I can have fun with, who wont go around calling each other n00b for losing a battle for one reason or another. However if theirs not enough of us online for a full party or only a few of us are free then ur saying we shouldn’t have the option to play any PvP?

If you have 4 people, go play TA. If you really want to earn fame try to recruit a pug you feel confident with. There are options for casual pvp play and serious pvp play. You cannot be taking pvp seriously if you actually think that running 3-4 heroes is legitimate. People who take such a casual stance towards pvp should not be allowed to ruin the fun for people who take a more serious approach. If you do not have enough people for an 8 man team and are not prepared to invite pugs into your team you should not be in HA nor should you demand to be able to play. Theres a reason for the options between RA/TA/HA/Herobattles/GvG/Alliance battles.

its simply unreasonable to demand or expect to be able to play an 8man pvp mode when you do not have 8 people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

So your saying u cant compete with the Super advanced AI? That the Ai is superior to humans in all ways, and Henchies should be removed too?

henchies are bad and have always been seen as such because of their skill bars. With the heroes we are able to exploit the advantages of the AI which is capable of things humans are not. If you do not know that AI in general is capable of things the human being is not you really need to read more.

Besides, alot of pvpers care little whether heroes are beatable or not. They argue that even the presence of heroes is wrong based on the simple premise that PvP stands for Player versus Player. In a competitive environment you can expect a level of interaction with the opposing team... whether its friendly rivalry or a bit of banter or bitter rivalry or mutual respect. You do not get this level of interaction or immersion when fighting against AI bots. Its no fun to play against a enemy that never gets tired... never needs sleep or to eat or drink... removes deep wound the instant its applied... can maintain death nova on 8+ minions whilst keeping taint on 8 people... can interrupt a 3/4 second cast whether they are babysitting you or not... ressurect allies even before they are even dead (i swear ive seen heroes cast res sig before someone died lol)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Yes there are alternatives, Heroes are one of them. They are fill in slots for partys that don’t want to pick random people up that they cant rely on who chances are going to randomly leave, argue, offend others etc. Above all I play with friends, nice people, I can trust and have fun with, which is the whole point of the game.

heroes should not be an alternative. If you are missing 2 players in the team i really dont see the problem with picking up 2 strangers or at least 2 players who might be known to you by name. If you are a regular in HA you should be able to identify and recognise people in the lobby who could possible be worth inviting to your group... whether its by their player name or by their guild tag. The whole process of interaction between teams and potential teammates should be encouraged in a competitive environment... people should be encouraged to keep on developing their friendlist...

the option of taking heroes has taken this level of interaction within the community away. Instead of actually trying to make more friends or meet new players to add to your list of trustworthy players... people are taking the easy route and taking heroes instead.

its so ironic that the people who choose to take heroes because they dont have enough players for a full man team... through the act of playing with heroes they are alienating other players who might actually want to play with them.

why dont all the people playing heroway (theres 4 human players in that build) just get together and play with the other people in the other heroways? For every 2 heroway teams you could form 1 full team of human players. If it really was an issue of not having enough people i dont see how this couldnt happen.

the fact is... people are exploiting heroes to farm fame. They dont care about the competitive community nor the impact of the heroes is having on the HA population, they want easy fame without the bother of organising a good team.

People who claim otherwise are sadly dillusional, and i have no sympathy towards the peolpe who truly do play heroway because they only have 4 friend online at the time. Make new friends...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

People began to go it alone LONG before heroes arrived on the scene, the reason for it is people u don’t know u cant trust or rely on and more often than not and im sorry to say there are also offensive and nasty to anyone who doesn’t allow them to complete their goals asap. Heroes are there because Henchies only have limited skill sets, Heros are just Henchies with the ability to customise, so u can synergise much better. People still play with friends, new and old even though heroes shave been added to the game. Henchies have been in Gw since the very beginning, Heroes have changed nothing, except the skill bars on the henchies. That’s it.

from the release of nightfall i noticed something very disturbing when going to PvE and work my way through the new Nightfall campaign. Local chat was almost never used. In almost every mission town... all you would see is people playing on their own. I saw threads on forums announcing the death of Pugs in pve. Heroes replaced players because your average pug player was a waste of space. But this meant that the above average pug player no longer had the chance to pug with other above average pug players. Everyone was either playing with their closest friends/guildies or with heroes.

the thing is... i dont blame them. Why bother putting the effort into organising a team with trustworthy human players when you can accomplish the mission without the fuss by just using Heroes? It takes alot of patience and organisation to run a team of 8 human players, you might have to attempt a mission multiple times because 1 person made a mistake or wandered off course. In terms of practicality of course heroes are the better option... especially if you are not part of a large and very active pve guild.

but people have to recognise the consequences of this convenience. i thought this game like all MMO games were supposed to encourage interaction between its players, to foster communities and a deeper immersion into the game. The availability of Heroes sorta turns the game into a hybrid of a single player game like baldurs gate 2 and neverwinter nights, and so attracts the sort of players who do not seek interaction with other players but instead prefer to play the game on their own.

i think GW is trying to do too many things at once. And most of these things are not complimentary to eachother. As far as im concerned, the addition of heroes in pve made the need for the game to be 'online' totally unnecessary, especially in the cases where people could actual complete the game without ever talking to any other player.

as wonderful as the AI is and Anet deserve some credit for coding it... it has no place in a game thats designed for multiplayer environment that should encourage interaction between its players.

are we playing a single player game or a multiplayer game?

or is it both... and if it is both wat consequences will that have?

glountz · Jul 26, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

So your saying u cant compete with the Super advanced AI? That the Ai is superior to humans in all ways, and Henchies should be removed too?

For some specific skillsets, no. And you can't too. No one can, in fact.
Heroes see exactly what enchants are on every party member. Players do not. Heroes can interrupts a spell without babysitting a target, that's said, that's like they had a panel of every opponent as a target, and were able to pick the interesting target, players can have only one target in sight at a time. Heroes can monitor each of their minions with death nova, without any problem. Players, not having a party window with their minions, do not. Heroes can see every mana bar of their party members and BR them accordingly. Players do not.
What's even more cheated, is that every human player can see the hexes/enchants/stances/conditions/health/mana whatever affecting their heroes. Full human parties are forced to rely on little yellow/brown/purple triangles on a red bar and restless pings of their teamates.
To compete, you should be able to pop up a little "hero status window" like you have for your heroes for the players, so you could monitor every party members.
Heroes have flaws, yes, but they can be microed accordingly.
I don't think heroes can beat a good player. But on specific skillsets (aka N/Rt death N) they can beat on reflexs/skill management any player.